tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post4863821008711300410..comments2023-10-29T05:11:37.677-07:00Comments on Porcupine blog: The Myth Of Socialism As StatismLarry Gambonehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-6911568212385256882008-12-18T11:00:00.000-08:002008-12-18T11:00:00.000-08:00"Let's just say that private ownership of the mean..."Let's just say that private ownership of the means of production and wage labor most likely predate the state and needs not a state to exist.'<BR/><BR/>You can say, that but proof is another matter. I know of not a single historical instance of capitalism existing without a state. First though, I should explain what socialists and anarchists mean exactly by capitalism. Some level of private ownership, exchange or even wage labour to a small degree does not capitalism make. Capitalism as a system exists where the majority must work for a capitalist and production is done almost exclucively for a market. For such a system to come about the vast bulk of the population - peasants and artisans - must be converted into workers and their property converted into capitalist property. This can only be done by depriving them of their property. Since people do not give up their property (and independence) freely it must be done by force. The agency of that force is the state. Unlike speculation about the existence of stateless capitalist societies, there is overwhelming evidence of independent producers being expropriated by capitalists, directly or indirectly, through the agency of government. I suggest you read Kevin Carson's IRON FIST at www.mutualist.org for a full explanation of this development.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-53219167846341965732008-12-17T11:21:00.000-08:002008-12-17T11:21:00.000-08:00Larry says "Excellent article! I suggest that anyo...Larry says "Excellent article! I suggest that anyone who thinks capitalism developed on its own without state assistance should read it."<BR/><BR/>The article mentions that socialism does not imply statism and is historically distinct from it, it does imply that capitalism relies on the state at all. <BR/><BR/>Regardless of your opinion on this matter, this claim does not logically follow from this fine article.<BR/><BR/>I would say you're wrong, but then we'll quibble on semantics. Let's just say that private ownership of the means of production and wage labor most likely predate the state and needs not a state to exist.Arthur B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07960779431956791836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-55844927357486708362008-12-14T17:02:00.000-08:002008-12-14T17:02:00.000-08:00Thanks, I'll check all that out!Thanks, I'll check all that out!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-40610204117395947862008-12-14T14:55:00.000-08:002008-12-14T14:55:00.000-08:00This is all I can find in English that might be of...This is all I can find in English that might be of help.<BR/><BR/>Quebec Solidaire<BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu%C3%A9bec_solidaire <BR/><BR/>http://canadiandimension.com/articles/2008/12/13/2244/ <BR/><BR/>http://commonfront.org/node/172 <BR/><BR/>Anti Capitalist Party<BR/>http://www.newsocialist.org/index.php?id=1762 <BR/><BR/>http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1492 <BR/><BR/>Chilean Left-Populism<BR/>http://porkupineblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/chile-part-3-radical-left.htmlLarry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-66795945991003913732008-12-14T12:53:00.000-08:002008-12-14T12:53:00.000-08:00Thanks, Larry.Where can I found out more about the...Thanks, Larry.<BR/><BR/>Where can I found out more about the movements you've mentioned? I've seen bits and pieces about them on your blog and a few others. Is there much Enlish language material available on these?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-46043163176724639162008-12-14T12:16:00.000-08:002008-12-14T12:16:00.000-08:00Excellent article! I suggest that anyone who think...Excellent article! I suggest that anyone who thinks capitalism developed on its own without state assistance should read it. One small quibble. You mention "an increasingly moribund left". This is certainly true in regards to main stream social democracy and the unreformed CP's. But a new left has arisen, rooted in the anti-corporate globalist movement, borrowing from anarchism, and indigenous movements. Most evident in Latin America, it is also found elsewhere in France's Anti Capitalist Party, Quebec Solidaire and numerous other groups. Anarchists, sincere libertarians and the new left together must work together to eliminate the corporatist system.Larry Gambonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04965037776214596919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11635675.post-72999358550538337262008-12-13T14:50:00.000-08:002008-12-13T14:50:00.000-08:00This is an absolute masterpiece. I show this to pe...This is an absolute masterpiece. I show this to people all the time when I'm trying to argue economic points. It's shock value alone is priceless. <BR/><BR/>I also cited this as a reference in a recent essay I produced for the UK's Libertarian Alliance.<BR/><BR/>http://attackthesystem.com/free-enterprise-the-antidote-to-corporate-plutocracy/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com